Another preface: For those of you just tuning in who don't really know me, I ADORE my children...don't want you to get the wrong idea. I do not see them as a burden...not what this is about. They are a pure joy (even in the midst of fussiness and disobedience) and I delight in them daily and feel completely and thoroughly honored to have the privilege to train them up in the way they should go. These are just some continued ponderings on fertility and what to do with it. ;)
Great comments last post. Thank you so very much for commenting...all of you who did, from all walks of life and from all opinions (pro-prevention, anti-prevention, and all in between). Thank you all also for being so wonderfully uplifting and loving too with such a potentially heated topic. Oh, and those of you who chose to just email me...thank you too.
Last time my "one question" leaned toward the anti-prevention side. But, as I said, we are just a whopping 50/50 in this...both of us. So, I thought I'd pose some of our pro-prevention arguments, if you will (it always cracks me up when someone says "if you will" even if it's appropriate to say at the time...I don't know why...but, here I am saying it...I'm laughing at myself...ha ha ha). I'd love to hear what you think about these too. Here we go...
Another thing that Joel has recently said is that it's not like we aren't trusting-God kind of people. So, that's not the issue. But, truthfully, when does it just become stupidity? We are already riding around illegally in our car. Grady and Hadley are sharing a seat and seatbelt. Now that we have a visitor here for 6 more weeks, she and Eissa are sharing a seat and seatbelt too. Even in Brazil it's illegal :)...and unsafe. We've prayed for a bigger vehicle and it just hasn't been provided. So now we are still just trusting God that 1) He will provide at His right timing and 2) He will keep our sweet kiddos safe in our smushy car until then. We know He will.
Another thing is that we sometimes seem to be barely scraping by to be quite honest. We haven't ever been fully funded (as far as monthly committed funds) but have made it fine with special gifts. Those haven't been really coming in lately. Sometimes we have to use money that we are supposed to be setting aside for furlough (and other things) to pay the bills. Now, this isn't a whoa is us session about finances. I think that money would probably be the last thing on the list when considering whether or not to have more children right now (and just to clear it up...we do want more children...plan to have more biological and also adopt, but we are just now asking these questions about fertility in general). But, it does weigh in. Do we believe that God can and will provide for our every need? He has and will continue to...we are not desperate or anything...I don't want to paint that picture...just tight. But, do we believe that this could be another sign if you will (ha ha ha...I did it again) for our answer? We don't know. I mean, if He's not providing the money to, for example, buy the bigger vehicle...??? (we are illegal now, but we're fine...we can at least all fit in the car; if we had another baby, we truly wouldn't be able to go anywhere all together as a family...that just doesn't work)
Is it kind of like the old joke about the drowning man?
A man is drowning in a lake. A boat comes by and offers to save the man. The man says no, that God will save him. Another boat comes by and offers help. The man says no, God will save him. The man dies and goes to heaven and asks God why He didn't save him. God says, "Hello, dummy...I sent you 2 boats."
Is God saying to us, "Hello, dummies, there's raincoats right there." :)
That's a stretch for some of you, but for some, you are thinking That's right.
Then there is the other less material/trivial, more spiritual sounding issue...our lives as a whole (and this was something that was brought up in the comments). What are we here for? Another one of the pro-prevention questions we've had is that of children and our other callings in life. Obviously everyone has more than one calling. But, for some the calling of having children seems to be their main one. That is forefront to them...having and raising Godly children for God's glory and the work of His kingdom. In fact, that is an argument that some quiver full (for lack of a better term...you all know what I mean when I say that, so it just makes it easier) people use...you should have as many children as you can so that you will have more workers for the Kingdom. But, if everyone does that and is so busy raising children, what about the other work that you are supposed to do? What if your children that you raised to work for the Kingdom just focuses on raising up a ton of kids to work in the Kingdom and they do the same and so on and so on?
Example: Someone has an AMAZING evangelistic gifting and call on their lives. There is no fighting the fact that raising children takes time and alot of it. It is time well spent and MUCH enjoyed, don't get me wrong. But, if someone has a strong calling to do something other than the very high privilege and task of raising children...and really being there...not sure the numbers argument really wins me over. That is a great excitement for someone who is called to having a large (and I mean large, not this 5 or 6 kid "large" label that people have for what I consider small) family...those who don't prevent and eagerly anticipate the positive pregnancy tests each and every time...just can't wait for it...don't seem at all overwhelmed by it. For some, anything other than that reaction and outlook is lack of trust and peace and resting in God's ways. But, could it just be that some are called to that as a ministry and others aren't? Could it be that it's not just one set way for every family?
Back to the numbers and the evangelistic guy. If he is truly called to that but also has children, is it possible that by only having, say, 3-5 children (still a "large" family to some) he could do more for the kingdom than having more children? What if he is able to go evangelizing more because he has less children...therefore able to be more obedient to his main calling (don't misunderstand...family is the main priority still, but you get me, right?...family is the main priority, but might not be your only ministry). What if he takes those children everywhere he goes and they become little evangelizers...wow. I'd say that is potential for doing way more for the kingdom than just having more children. That is some major multiplication happening right there...and all with just 3-5 children. So yeah...that numbers argument has never worked for me. Besides, how many times did God use a smaller number of people to defeat a large army? Although I see the concept and logic of this point of numbers, I think the more important thing is to be powerful and strong (in God)...it's not about being mighty in numbers.
But then we are back to the matter of whether or not we are the ones who have the "right" to prevent it with man-made means...contraceptives, surgeries, etc. Because, yes...of the anti-prevention people, there are those who have a child every year for years (i.e. Jaynee from the comments of the last post...those are some beautiful children, by the way). But, there are also some of my friends who have had a couple of children, then nothing for a few years, then another couple, then nothing and they thought they'd have no more, then another couple, etc. In other words, everything was a go and there was no physical reason that they weren't having a child every year also...the only explanation was that God was "closing her womb" for a time. Then I have another couple of friends who had 4 children in less than 4 years (yep, it's possible...no twins in there). Then nothing...again, no explanation in the physical.
Another aspect of all of this, and on a more personal note...if we do feel like God gives us the green light to use a prevention method, I absolutely despise every single one of them...seriously detest the thought of any of the contraceptives (and surgeries) available. Geez...the hassle that will be to weed through that. :) God has some major work to do with me. :) Or, is that God that I detest those things?
Oh, and I didn't even touch on the pro-prevention argument of physical reasons to prevent...if there are any...again, should we just trust? Maybe, but we aren't in the garden of Eden...things are not perfect and our bodies REALLY show it sometime, physically, mentally, emotionally. As I wrote in an email to a friend, the whole Andrea Yates drowning her 5 children in the tub comes to mind. But, then again, there are people I've read about who are adamant about their mandate to not prevent, saying that they would consider it something that God just allowed if they should die...leaving 10 children. Is that abandonment, a calling just for that specific person, or is that where all of us should be? It's a tough one...seriously.
In all of these examples, one thing that comes to mind (spiritual principle) is that God always expects and calls us to be wise and good stewards with our resources (time, money, physical bodies, etc.).
So, yeah...told you we could argue both sides. :)
Would love to continue hearing your thoughts.
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Ok, honestly a little afraid to comment but here goes: As I said previously, both of us feel great about our biological number that we have. We are always open to an adoption if God shows us that so it is not simply about numbers for us either. We want to be obedient to God--no matter what. If we were disobedient about preventing any more biological children, we haven't been convicted of that at all. Is this decision right for everyone?? NO! But it was the right one for us.I also HATE lots of the prevention methods out there and lots of them had weird side effects and were just horrible. We now have a freedom in that area that we did not have before. That may sound selfish to some but after 13 years of marriage, that time is ours now in a different way. I liked your argument on the numbers. Look at our family if I have four children and they are all working for the Kingdom of God--look at all the people that can be reached!!!!Still praying for clarity and God's perfect plan for your family.
I think the reason I prefer NFP is that it gives room for prevention, but also allows God to make miracles. If you follow the method perfectly, it is 99% effective--as good as 'the pill' and better than 'raincoats.'
Ronnie and I took a class, and while I don't agree with all Catholic teachings, this one I do. We honestly love it. It keeps us communicating and keeps the romance.
Seriously, you should look into it further. NFP provides you with birth control, but also keeps you from preventing God's blessings. It is wisdom to know how your body works. It is a sacrifice, yes, to abstain during your fertile time, but women did this centuries ago. How else do you think a woman could ask for her husband on a certain night and conceive the very night? She knew her body.
Yes, know all about NFP. And totally agree with women knowing all they can know about their body. In fact, HIGHLY recommend the book "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" to anyone and everyone (I read it before I started trying to get pregnant the very first time)...hugely enlightening and awesome. I was never personally told any of that stuff...it's an awesome book.
So, totally know ALL about my own body. About NFP (and watching the signs and such for fertility) though...it's really hard to use after you've had a baby and are still nursing. Periods aren't regular, if at all, and temps are a unreliable because your hormones are still crazy. So, not exactly as effective as the pill I'd say. But, may be our only option. Can't say I agree with the whole abstaining thing...probaby would suggest/opt to use the raincoat during that time.
Thanks so much for your continued comments. They are super interesting and truly very helpful, I'm not kidding.
one needs to be aware of the seasons. the farther from the equator it's aparent how totally different climate, growth,and changes in animal and insect behavior is for God made it to be so. so also in our lives. I was once adamantly against permament birth control and was shocked years later when I just knew it was the right thing for me before God. a couple,being in agreement, should do what they feel is best for now, in this time of their life. Paul said when he was a child he thought as a child but now...As we walk with Jesus is always change,expect it. He uses it so life doesn't get stagnant and we keep rejoicing in the newness of our life in Him. Pam
We always used the timing method and it was successful. God never allowed me to get pregnant when it wasn't time. I think God is going to give you wisdom on this, I really do. Do you even want more right now? I would use that as a guide also. How much would it cost to get you a van out there? I want you all to be safe.
NFP is more than just timing and temperature.
It has to do with checking your cervical opening, assessing your vaginal mucous AND taking your basal temp.
One can go on temp alone, but vag. mucous is a clearer indicator of fertility.
You may have ovulatory cycles well before your period return, knowing your mucous would enable you to see your fertility return earlier than your period.
Yes, know all about the signs of fertility...that book that I recommended to anyone and everyone teaches all about that (mucous, checking your cervix, temps., and other indicators...has great pics by the way) and a bonus is that it is super readable...as in the author makes it fun. The cervical mucous unfortunately is not a clear indicator for me. I won't go into details, but it just isn't. So, that's my biggest issue with this method alone, esp. while nursing/with a newborn.
By the way, what the book talks about is what is really better referred to as FAM (fertility awareness method). I'm sure you can google it and find out lots on the internet without even having the book if y'all are interested.
I wanted to email you, but now I can't seem to find your email address anywhere. So I guess I'll just comment :) I hope this isn't too long.
Like I said, I have gone through many of the same questions/thoughts that you and your hubby are going through right now. I just want to share with you what the Lord brought to my heart as I cried out to Him for answers.
Having children is not stupidity. Stupid is defined as "given to unintelligent decisions or actions; lacking reason; acting in a careless manner".
Is the God who made us to bear children, over and over and over tells us what a blessing they are...is He unintelligent or lacking in reason? Sure, there are many things that we may do that are careless and just plain dumb...a hubby and wife enjoying eachother in all purity and if the Lord allows, conceiving and bringing another soul into the world is not stupid...it is a lot of fun and so wonderfully blessed! :)
Next, about the finances/provision. When I thought over our child bearing years so far, I cannot tell you a time that the Lord did not meet our every need. We always had food, we always had clothes, and even a roof over our heads. Some things we think are needs, really aren't...but the Lord has abundantly supplied more than we ever have needed. We live simply and so very happily!
The joke about the old man drowing...that might be a good analogy for something else...like salvation of a soul. But to use it in the case of having children is to say that God is trying to stop one from having children by means of contraceptives. I believe that if He really wants one to not have a child, He will simply do as He says in His Word and close the womb.
Okay, your next point...the work one is called to do, evangelism ect... I too struggled greatly with this. The Lord gave me such peace. First, if we are simply trusting the Lord to give us the children that He chooses, and He has also called us to share the gospel here in Mexico, that those two things will not clash...be in contradiction to eachother. The Lord could have easily given us no children, or 2 children, or He may give us 15. So far, He's given us 11. What does that mean for the ministry?
My ministry is my hubby and children. Do I help out in the work here? Well, I visit the widows and orphans with my children, we witness to everyone that come in our path, I help with whatever Daniel needs me to do...but we have seen so many people in the ministry so busy "ministring" that they lose their families. God's plan for a woman is perfect (Titus 2). Now if God had given me no children, I'd be doing other things to help Daniel, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm doing just what God wants me to do and I am by far able to be used more through doing this than if I was able to walk the streets everyday and witness to thousands. Who knows what the Lord has in store for my children someday in the future too???!!
Daniel loves to witness, disciple, preach ect... Has having all these children hindered that? Not in the least! We could tell you for hours how the Lord has used this to open so many doors here. Does he have to come home a bit more than a man that has no children? Of course....Is God's work hindered by this? Not at all!
God may very well call some to minister in other ways...There are many people I know that haven't been able to have a child or only have 1 or 2 or 3 and want more. The point is that God decides what is best for His glory.
And then like you said, when it came down to it...neither Daniel or I could think of anything that we would really "want" to do to prevent anything.
I tell you, we just have so much fun together...that is how God made us. People tell me that it is bad for my health...I have had "serious complications" a few times and the Lord brought me through...is that stupid? My heart just fully trusts and has peace. If God were to take me home, I know it would only be to bring glory to His name. Those times did not cause me to fear pregnancy...but rather increased my trust in our loving wonderful God.
God loves life! I had a friend once tell me that God gave us these "preventative" things now and we can freely use them as we see fit...before they were invented, people didn't have a choice...she said that just as medicine has advanced in other areas and we have cures and surgeries for lots of things they didn't have 100 years ago.
But I'm not talking about removing a tumor or an apendix to save life...I'm talking about having a baby.
I'm sorry this is so long...and a bit scattered...it is late :)
love,
Jaynee
I truly believe that God gave us wisdom to discern on purpose! He made our bodies with fertility signs that can be read for a purpose. Do you think that maybe it could be so that we can read these signs and make a wise decision, like the Man and the three boats. He gives us desires and he also takes them away. Thats not to say that you couldn't suddenly get pregnant when all scientific answers don't add up because God is totally capable of that. My sister-in-law had that happen. If God wants you to have another baby, he can make that happen whether you are trying to prevent it or not. I think you absolutely have to factor in all the things your body is telling you, like my body needs a break. That is a god given discernment, and how you and your husband are feeling emotionally. I believe God gives us these discernments for a reason. Those are mine and my husbands personal thoughts in our lives in this matter. I hope this doesn't step on anyones toes. We have also spent time seeking God on this matter and this is the way we feel God has spoken to us.
Well, I'm late to the discussion, but I hope that's okay! I wanted to join in when it was happening, but the truth is, I am in the midst of the same dilemma and my opinion seems to fluctuate a lot right now! I wasn't sure how to write what I feel about it.
Michawn, I just wanted to say thanks SO MUCH for laying it all on the table here, because it has really helped me. I have 3 little boys, aged 3, 2 and 5 months, and we have so far just been eager (okay, *I've* been eager and my husband has been happy to go along with it, lol!) to have several kids closely spaced. I breastfeed and tandem nurse, so I just have to wait till my cycles get back and calm down enough, and then I am pregnant again. Until my last baby, I really had never heard about "quiver full" stuff and it never occurred to me before that it is biblical to let God control family size. I don't know anybody who thinks like this in real life, and even at church, only one family has as many as four kids, and they are "nuts" for doing so, apparently. *sigh* I have been really thinking and praying about it a lot this last year.
I happen to want a BUNCH of kids, and really miss pregnancy by the time my baby is between 6 and 9 months old, so the thought of letting God determine how many children we have excites me. I know that He could very well just close my womb instead of blessing us with more children. I think if He did, I would have a hard time accepting it, but accept it I would have to, and it would be easier for knowing that it was God's plan and not mine.
My husband is not on the same page (I think! We are about to discuss it in much more depth this weekend), in that he often looks at things from a more worldly point of view - how he feels about having children, what people would think of us, how we would get by financially, etc. Which drives me nuts, and I am praying all the time for him to press into God and stop with the worldly concerns. But anyway. He thought a couple of kids would be good, or maybe 3. He knew I always wanted 4 minimum and has "consented" (!!) to four kiddos. He is a wonderful daddy, 100% involved and loves his kids. I think he just doesn't want it to get too crazy around here! ;)
But I'm finding all this stuff to read and looking at things from angles I never knew about before. I know I need to submit to my husband but I first of all want him to be informed and immersed in the Bible and listening to God about it before he makes the decision that I need to submit to! ;) It's more difficult for him. It works for me, the way I feel about having kids, but does not fit with his comfort zone, I think.
Anyway, I just wanted to thank you because you've laid out the arguments for and against SO well, and so compactly and simply, and that will help us so much as we sit down to discuss it soon. I told him about your blog (he's super interested as he always wanted to be a pilot working in the missions field, but has no pilot qualifications and is getting too old to get one, sadly), and about your latest blog entries, and we're thinking we will read them together and have our Bible handy, and start our discussion from there! So I wanted to say thank you!
And also, I am so glad that Jaynee can't find your email, haha! I have really valued the comments here, and Jaynee's experience and viewpoint is very helpful, with all the detail she shared (thanks Jaynee!).
In a nutshell (I know it's an epic so far, lol!), I personally feel that I agree with the "quiver full" mindset that it's GOOD and right to let God control exactly when and who joins our family. We are also beginning to think about the possibility of adoption. This is the beginning of a big eye-opening experience for us, and that's exciting! I just want to give God the reins, and then pray pray pray for babies in His perfect timing! I don't know what I would do if I was in your shoes, needing a physical break.... I guess I would pray for one (I have read that some do that and their prayers are answered), or maaaayyybe consider FAM? I don't know. I have been using FAM since before my first baby was conceived - I just heart charting ;)
Okay, that's all! I will now go and leave a comment about your latest photos of your gorgeous kids! :)
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