Principle Two - Part 3

I got an email last month from one of Joel's family members.

He outlined two principles of marriage and said, "These two principles may help you understand how we deal with differences in marriage and the reason for not supporting excommunication."

And by excommunication he means cutting ties with someone.  They just like to use the word 'excommunication' because it has such a negative, unhealthy, severe connotation.

And they don't believe in cutting ties with anyone, family or not.  Ever.

So, I am responding to that email here on the blog.  Here are links to the other parts of this series that have already been posted over the last few weeks:
Principle One
Principle Two - Part 1
Principle Two - Part 2

And now, the final part of my response to this email.

A review of the Principle Two shared in the email...

[Eph 6:2-3 NKJV] Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.   

There is no condition attached to justify not obeying this principle. I don't see any warrant in scriptures for completely cutting off relationship with our parents. If my parents had become unsafe during the 10 years we lived near and worked with them, there would have been ways to deal with it at my end. But in no way am I to completely cut off relationship with parents.   

I do not believe there is such a thing as choosing between my family of origin and my wife and children. When married, I leave and cleave, but my love, respect and honor to my extended family is in no way a threat to my marriage. In my opinion this honoring of parents and in-laws is what comprises healthy families. I will never understand why you feel Joel chooses us over you. To me this is not a real choice any family member ever has to make. The natural affection one has for family of origin is a God given affection, and is not a threat to the immediate family.

Now, let's talk about this "Honor your father and mother" passage.

I'm not going to go really in-depth on this part (although I could), because I think that the rest of what I have said is enough to back up my position and prove that your position is not backed up by truth or Scripture.

But, 'honor.'  Let's look at that word.

Honor means 'to regard with great respect.'

Do you not believe that you can honor someone and yet not be in their presence?

Do you not believe that you can honor someone and yet not have an active relationship with them?

Do you not believe that you can honor someone and yet oppose most of what they stand for or do?

I can do all of those things.

I honor Mother Teresa and all that she stood for and did...yet I never knew her or had a relationship with her.

I honor politicians who don't have the same ideas or beliefs as me, but who I can tell have good and passionate hearts for people, are still kind, and are...honorable.

I honor my own parents.  And by not saying anything more here about that, I am honoring them.

We honor by living in and telling the truth.  In fact, that is one of the key ways in which we honor.  Even when the truth is hard.  Even when it's not what some view as 'positive' or 'uplifting.'  Because living in the truth is always the honorable thing to do and always brings the most honor in the long run...even if it's hard or might not seem like it brings honor in the beginning stages.

It's like when someone has a very bad burn.  We don't 'honor' that burn by just covering it up and being 'positive' about it.  No.  We have to uncover it.  We have to get down in the nasty, painful, incredibly damaged parts...all so that it can be healed.  Without that, the burn will NOT be healed...and worse than that, it will spread even more damage and loss.  At first it might not seem like 'honoring' to get down in the nasty parts.  It might seem more comfortable and less painful to just cover it and leave it.  But...that isn't truth about that situation.

Honoring doesn't mean turning a blind eye.  That is the opposite of honoring.  But, sometimes people are only willing to turn a blind eye.  Sometimes they refuse to do what is needed in order to reach a place of healing.  These people don't honor the wounds.  And no matter who they are, if the wounds aren't honored...and uncovered, and debrided (a very painful process that must be done as unpleasant and 'un-positive' as it is)...the people refusing to honor the wounds are unsafe.  They aren't honorable people...even though you can still 'honor' them by doing it from afar.  And you are definitely honoring yourself that way.

Sometimes when we honor people, we honor them from a distance.  We have to.  Because they aren't safe enough to honor in an active relationship.  And knowing that that distance is warranted and recommended is an honoring act.

Surely you know these things about what honor means and looks like lived out.

There are many resources, even Christian-based ones, that address the issue of cutting ties with family.  There are articles and books and interviews and teachings.  For cutting ties with family to be seen by you as something that is foreign or unbiblical is, again, just another sign of you not living in reality and truth.  And, for you to think that you can't still honor your parents while not in an active relationship with them is another sign.  We must live in truth.

I highly recommend the books Safe People, Boundaries, and Necessary Endings by Cloud and Townsend.

I am going to share this article too, though.  This article is NOT addressing abusive situations.  So, when they say things like "...leaving your parents does not mean you permanently withdraw and no longer have a good relationship with them. That’s isolating yourself, not leaving," that applies to people in normal relationships.  Again...this doesn't apply to abusive, toxic situations.  I never wanted us to have to leave you permanently.  That was never even on my radar...until the abuse happened.  And even then, I was naive and fully believed that after a normal, adult conversation with you all, everything would be cleared up and we would be on our way again, in close relationship...no problem.  But you all refused to even have that conversation with me.  So, that was not the case...not even close.  No, this quote does not apply to abusive and toxic situation.  And our situation is abusive/toxic.  You must remember that.

Also, the authors/this site...they are complementarian, which is a red flag for me and against everything I believe marriage should be.  But, I use this to show that even some complementarians get this topic right, which should be telling.  Very, very telling.

I share this article to point out that Joel never even did this part.  He never left you even in this way that is commanded us in Scripture.  This command...you even say that you counsel in this way, but this is not the counsel that you gave Joel...just the opposite.

Some excerpts from the article:

*Jesus addressed the issue when he said that no one was ever intended to come between a husband and a wife (Matthew 19:6). No one! No in-laws, no mother, no father was meant to divide a couple who had made a covenant with each other to leave, cleave, and become one flesh.
--You may not have intended to come between us, but you did.  And after you were told that that is what you were doing, you just continued to do the same things.  Not teachable, not changed by truth.  So, even if you didn't intend to come between us initially, after you heard that truth, you should have stopped...and you chose not to.

*“the failure to shift loyalty from parents to spouse is a central issue in almost all marital conflict.” God knows that leaving parents will be a difficult transition, especially in homes where the child-parent bond has been solid and warm. Unfortunately, many (if not most) couples do not cut the apron strings—they lengthen them!
--Joel's loyalty never shifted from you to me.  There's just no arguing that fact.  If it had, the first half of 2012 would have looked COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.  If you need me to review the facts of those 6 months, I will gladly share it.  But, that is when it was first proven that his loyalty was with you, his family of origin, and not with me.  Again...that's not my perception.  That is fact.  That is proven in evidence.

*We had forsaken our dependence upon them for our livelihood and emotional support and were turning to each other as the primary relationship of our lives.
--Again, Joel never did that.  The evidence shows that he went to you guys instead of me starting at the beginning of 2012...and that just continued.  He turned to you (when I had no idea anything was even wrong)...he didn't turn to me (even though I had never given him any reason at all to not turn to me).  Had he 1) come to me for his emotional support, and 2) believed the truth I was telling him (about me, our situation, etc.) and let the facts/truth change him and his wayward thoughts (2 Cor. 10:5), then none of this would have happened.

*The public affirmation of our covenant to each other meant, “No relationship on earth, other than my relationship with Jesus Christ and God, is more important than my relationship with my spouse.”
--Again, this isn't true of Joel.  You can say it is.  But, that isn't truth.  The facts and evidence literally prove otherwise.  Saying something doesn't make it so.  And saying something without actually backing those words up with behaviors...it means nothing.

*...you must make a break from them and sever your dependence on them. As time passes, you must be diligent to prevent any reestablishment of dependence at critical points in your marriage.
--If Joel ever did sever his dependence on you (which I doubt, for reasons that I might dive into at another time), then he reestablished it at the beginning of 2012.  And you let him.  You welcomed that behavior...and then counseled him to further that behavior.  Again, I have that evidence all in your own words.  Do I need to review that with you?  That was your counsel to him.

*A tip: Always try to consult your spouse before seeking input from parents.
--And I would say no...that's where the complementarian thing comes in strong.  You shouldn't just try to consult your wife.  You should consult your wife.  Duh.  She is not only your partner, she is quite literally supposed to be you...that is the Biblical teaching after all.  You leave everything else and become ONE.  This did not happen.  He didn't consult with me at all.  Hleft me completely and went to you.  I never knew he was seeking input or counsel from you until the Spring of 2014 when I saw the emails between you all.  That was over two years into the destruction of our marriage already at that point.  You might say, "I didn't know you didn't know."  First of all, you may not have known at the beginning of 2012.  But, you for sure knew that he was doing all of these things behind my back by the end of 2012 (again...I have proof of that).  Also, you just let him come to you for his emotional support.  You never questioned it, or him.  You never said, "Joel, does your wife know you are coming to me for this?  Are you being honest and vulnerable and transparent with your wife...the person you are supposed to be one with?  I hope you are being loyal to her first and foremost.  What is it that she's saying she needs...and why?  I'm sure she has good reasons for these things.  She's never been dishonest or disloyal or unloving or controlling/manipulative before."  No...you never said any of that.  And, as you know, you never came to me and asked me my side of the story.  All of this could have been avoided had you done any of these things...or taught your son/brother how to do the right things in this situation in the first place.

There is MUCH more to this article.  I'm sure you can pinpoint all the parts that I would say were not done or heeded in our marriage and in the relationship with you, Joel's family of origin.

Also, don't forget the amazing teachings and model of Jesus that I specifically wrote about in the last post.  Jesus honored His parents.  He taught to honor parents.  He ALSO taught that if parents come between their kids and Him, to walk away from them (He came to 'bring a sword' to that kind of behavior.  Jesus and His ways are to come first.  His ways include a husband leaving his family of origin and cleaving to his wife completely...and not leaving his wife and children for his family of origin.  That is not Jesus.  Therefore, that is not right.

I do want to say also that in all the people that I was closest to when this started happening (i.e. the first 4 years), I first of all never went to ANYONE for advice or help until we were a full year and a half in.  And then secondly, I never ever ever ever went to others for advice or help 1) saying anything that I hadn't already discussed with Joel, or 2) saying anything derogatory about Joel.  Ever.  HE was still the person I went to for emotional support for everything.  I just didn't get any emotional support from him when I asked for it.  When I did talk to the people I did eventually talk to (again, not until we were a year and half in...I never told ANYONE for that full year and a half what was going on or what Joel was doing, even when he did things like go behind my back and buy plane tickets to leave to go do what he wanted to do when I was in such dire need of him to stay with me for many reasons at that point), I framed it in the same ways I do now...that he has been taught wrong things, that he isn't seeing clearly, that he isn't seeing the big picture, that he is just blinded to the truth.

To leave and cleave...that is what we are to do.  And, you are supposed to keep leaving (your family of origin) to cleave to your spouse (cling to, hold to tightly, forsaking anything and anyone else; to adhere to loyally and unwaveringly).

I did that.  Joel didn't.

Ebersole family, you need to be clear here...

If someone is saying to you, "This is hurting me.  This is damaging me and my family." And you just continue to do those things...

Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?

When someone tells you why something hurts and how to stop hurting them, and you choose to do so anyway...

Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?

When someone has already been hurt for years and, even though she has tried to talk to you and help you to know how to not hurt her, you choose to not only keep hurting her, but to just continue accusing her of more untrue things...

Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?

When that same person wants to escape this behavior and wants her spouse to see the need for escape and escape with her (because they are supposed to be one) and wants to be protected by the person who is supposed to protect her the most, and is then accused of divisiveness and selfishness and breaking up a family...

Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?

None of what I am saying in these posts matter if you can't live in the truth.

And part of that truth is that you have been abusive.  In all of these ways.  To me.

Do you see that?

If you can't live in the truth, then this will never get better.  Don't you want it to get better?

You say, "Even though we do not agree on some issues, in no way do I wish such a life on you. We consider you part of our family and not the enemy."

Do you consider me part of your family?  Would you really treat a part of your family this way?  If so, why?

You say, "You and the children are Joel's most important family."  But...that isn't true, sadly.  He left us to be with you.  That literally proves who is most important to him.  That's just a documented fact.

Now, he, just like you all, has not been living in the truth.  Again, truth is supposed to change you.  If truth had changed him, or you, then none of this would still be going on.  But, truth hasn't changed you.

If truth changed him, then maybe we would be his most important family.  That is not the case right now though.  It should be.  Maybe that's what you are speaking out of...what should be.  Because you know that that is Biblical and what should be true about us.  But, it is literally not the truth of our situation. 

Live in truth.

If you can't live in the truth, then this will never get better.

That's why I beg of you...please live in the truth.

And no.  No...this isn't just my perception of the truth.  This IS truth.  There is black and white evidence of this.  There is proof that this is the truth.

Also, our counselor and I have asked repeatedly for evidence that proves what you all have seen as truth (hopefully after these posts you no longer see those lies as truth).  Yet, we've received none.  For years we've asked for your evidence.  And there is none.

If you truly believe me to be a part of the family, then you will hear me, you will believe me, you will want to live and walk in truth, and you will be changed by the truth.

Principle Two - Part 2

I got an email recently from one of Joel's family members.

He outlined two principles of marriage and said, "These two principles may help you understand how we deal with differences in marriage and the reason for not supporting excommunication."

And by excommunication he means cutting ties with someone.  They just like to use the word 'excommunication' because it has such a negative, unhealthy, severe connotation.

And they don't believe in cutting ties with anyone, family or not.

So, I am responding to that email here on the blog.  This blog post is the first part of my response.  This blog post is the second part.

And now, the third part of my response...

A review of the Principle Two shared in the email...

[Eph 6:2-3 NKJV] Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.  

There is no condition attached to justify not obeying this principle. I don't see any warrant in scriptures for completely cutting off relationship with our parents. If my parents had become unsafe during the 10 years we lived near and worked with them, there would have been ways to deal with it at my end. But in no way am I to completely cut off relationship with parents.  

I do not believe there is such a thing as choosing between my family of origin and my wife and children. When married, I leave and cleave, but my love, respect and honor to my extended family is in no way a threat to my marriage. In my opinion this honoring of parents and in-laws is what comprises healthy families. I will never understand why you feel Joel chooses us over you. To me this is not a real choice any family member ever has to make. The natural affection one has for family of origin is a God given affection, and is not a threat to the immediate family.

Jesus never stayed with people who hurt him.  Ever.  Read about Him in this light, maybe for the first time, and you will see that truth.  When the people who didn't understand Him, and didn't get His side of the story or believe Him even when they did have His story, or accused Him of things that were never true...He loved them, He wished they would change, He wished the truth would change them, but it didn't.  So, He always incorporated boundaries with those people.

Didn't mean He didn't love them.  Didn't mean He hated them.  Didn't mean He was bitter.  Didn't mean He was holding grudges.  Didn't mean He was trying to get back at them.  None of those things were true of Him.

He was keeping Himself safe.

He kept Himself safe.

Yes, He taught to love and give of yourself and sacrifice and forgive and even reconcile when possible.  But, He also taught, and modeled very clearly (again, read about Him in this light), to take care of yourself, protect yourself from those who have harmed you, to walk away when people aren't going to be changed by truth, to have boundaries.

Jesus didn't just say that the truth is important and that it will set you free.  He said He IS the truth.  If we don't follow ALL of His examples and principles, then we aren't following and living in the truth.

I've been saying these things for years, you know that.  There are other resources that speak to this topic of boundaries and keeping oneself safe.  But, here's a great article I found recently with just a quick search that speaks to this Jesus I speak of to help you to see that this isn't just me or our counselor (or only people who don't honor God's Word) who are saying all of these things.

About Jesus and boundaries:  https://www.soulshepherding.org/jesus-set-boundaries/

I was originally going to go through and provide Scripture to show how Jesus kept Himself safe from harmful people (no matter who they were...family included), but that article is full of it.

You are a family that calls yourselves pacifists.  In reality, what happens is that you go to great lengths to avoid conflict.  GREAT lengths.  For instance, you all made up and believed stories in your heads about me that were just simply not true.  They were FAR from truth even in the beginning, but those stories just snowballed to the point that no matter what I said or had proof of, you saw me through the lens of those stories you already believed.  And you didn't even want to hear or work through anything that would help you to see otherwise.

Yes, you go to great lengths to avoid conflict.  But pacifism doesn't = avoidance of conflict.  That is not what pacifism is.  So, you like to claim pacifism.  But, that's not the truth of who you are.  What you have is a case of major passive-aggressive behavior, and the avoidance of conflict (which you might think is holy, but is not) at all costs.  And I do mean all costs.  The cost here?...me and my children.  You avoid conflict (and truth) so much that you are willing to destroy a family and see your son give up his wife and children in order to be with you.  I tried to avoid that.  For literally years.  I tried to help you all to keep us.  But, you didn't want to. 

As I said in the other posts...

The actual truth about me and our situation, the truth about family and gender and forgiveness/reconciliation, the truth about boundaries and cutting ties and what love really looks like, the truth about anger and motives and lots of other factors that are involved here...the truth about these things hasn't changed you.  The truth was offered to you over and over and over again.  And it hasn't changed you. 

When someone is saying you are hurting them, and they give very specific directions about why, and about how not to hurt them, they are not being 'controlling and manipulative' (what you accused me of).  They are being loving.  They are staying the course, trying to be with you, trying to help you to see how not to lose them. 

But when you just continue to hurt, it isn't possible to stay. 

Do you not understand that?

Do you know what Jesus said to do with the people who won't accept truth and be changed by it?  He tells them to leave those people, and to dust off your feet.  (Matthew 10)  Yes, right before that He says to heal, to love, to raise, to freely give.  BUT, because He is sending people out "like sheep among wolves," He knows how to teach them how to safeguard themselves too.  Jesus ISN'T just love, peace, joy.  He is also boundaries, safety, wisdom...and how to walk away when things aren't safe.  If you aren't following all sides and teachings of Jesus, then you aren't following Jesus. 

Matthew 10:34-37

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35  For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36  a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I remember having a discussion with you years ago at your kitchen table right before we all went to bed.  We were discussing pacifism, your beliefs, the fact that that was what was taught to you and the way your family lived.  I, at that time especially, was not a person who brought up conflicts (even if I saw wrong around me, I didn't always speak up).  But, I didn't avoid it either.  I was fine with discussing hard things and/or 'fighting' in order to reach resolve and peace...esp. if there were victims to rescue. 

I brought up this passage of Scripture that night.  I simply said, "So, what do you do with verses like that?"

You had no defense.  In fact, you acted like you'd never even heard that passage before.  You said, "Hmmm, and where is that?  I don't know.  I'll have to look into that and get back with you."  (You never got back with me about it.)

Obviously Jesus never wanted son to go against father, or daughter against mother, or DIL against MIL (or any other family combination to go against each other).  That is not His ideal.  But, Jesus was NOT afraid of conflict.  At all.  He would call people out in a millisecond.  And He knew that people would have to take stands for following His ways. 

I get it that you think that is what you are doing with me.  I get it that you think that you are taking a stand against me...and that you are following God's ways and I am not.  I get it that you have counseled Joel to take a stand against me because you believe that I am not following God's ways. 

But you are wrong.  You are so very, very, very destructively wrong.  And I have all the evidence, documentation, research, and Scripture to prove it.  Do we need to go over it all more? 

What are your thoughts and questions and objections to what is said here?

Principle Two - Part 1

As I said in my last post, I got an email last week from one of Joel's family members.

He outlined two principles of marriage and said, "These two principles may help you understand how we deal with differences in marriage and the reason for not supporting excommunication."

And by excommunication he means cutting ties with someone.  They just like to use the word 'excommunication' because it has such a negative, unhealthy, severe connotation.

And they don't believe in cutting ties with anyone, family or not.

Now...I speak to the person who sent this email, and the family in general.

The past will be brought up here.  This is something that you don't like...to 'rehash' the past.  But, this is not done to 'rehash' things just to rehash them.  This is not to rub your nose in what you did.  This is not to shame you.  This is not to try to make you look bad.  This is not to prove that I now have a right to retaliate (which I have no interest in).  For NONE of those reasons do we need to go through the history of the past.  The reason we need to go through the history is because there are points to be made about your Principle Two.  And only by going through the history can we get to those points.

I responded to Principle One in the last post.  Now, I will respond to the last part of Principle Two.  I will respond to the first part in my next post. 

Principle #2

[Eph 6:2-3 NKJV] Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth. 

There is no condition attached to justify not obeying this principle. I don't see any warrant in scriptures for completely cutting off relationship with our parents. If my parents had become unsafe during the 10 years we lived near and worked with them, there would have been ways to deal with it at my end. But in no way am I to completely cut off relationship with parents. 

I do not believe there is such a thing as choosing between my family of origin and my wife and children. When married, I leave and cleave, but my love, respect and honor to my extended family is in no way a threat to my marriage. In my opinion this honoring of parents and in-laws is what comprises healthy families. I will never understand why you feel Joel chooses us over you. To me this is not a real choice any family member ever has to make. The natural affection one has for family of origin is a God given affection, and is not a threat to the immediate family.

As we talked about in the last post, we must live in the truth here.  Let the truth about everything I'm about to say sink in and change you.

"The natural affection one has for family of origin" is many many many many times "a threat to the immediate family." It happens OFTEN.

To even say that sentence that you said shows that you are not living in reality.  It shows that you live in a state of delusion, honestly.

Of course it is a very real choice that family members often have to make.

Maybe you would say, "Oh, of course I meant in normal, safe families.  Not families where physical or sexual abuse is taking place."  But no, that should never be a given.  If you literally say that there is no reason to ever disconnect from family, then that is what you meant.  But, there are so many reasons to disconnect from family.  Surely you would see physical or sexual threats as a reason.  Yes?

If you wouldn't say that, then we have a problem.  Then you are showing yourself to be EXTREMELY unsafe and scary.  Extremely.

But, if you would say that it's definitely appropriate to disconnect from/cut ties with a family that is physically and sexually threatening, would you say the same thing about a family that is emotionally/psychologically/spiritually threatening?

I hope so.

As we said in the last post...

If you "mention" (as you say) to your spouse "once or twice" that something is hurting you so so bad, that you are in dire need of stopping and being taken care of, that you cannot go any longer without a break to rest and recover, that moving forward would damage you tremendously and you just simply cannot do it...then no, you do not just 'commit that to the Lord in prayer' (although of course I did that) and yet just keep going if it isn't changed.  When that is 'mentioned' to a spouse, if that spouse does not stop what he's doing and take care of his wife, then that is, by all definitions, neglect.  And if he keeps doing what he is doing, and the wife stops (because she has to), and that spouse starts to then blame the wife saying that she is the one at fault, that she is trying to control and manipulate him, that she is being difficult...and even others start to join in with him in saying that...
That is abuse.  By all definitions, that is abuse.

So, do you see where you and your family have been emotionally/psychologically/spiritually threatening and unsafe?

I also went over some of the things you all did in this post.  Not just one-time things that can be seen as 'mistakes.'  No, we are talking about patterns of behavior that lasted for years.

If you need a review of even more things that were part of that, for many years, that were emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually threatening and unsafe, then let me know.  I have it all documented.

So...when someone, anyone, is unsafe or threatening or abusive in any way, and instead of letting truth change them (again, that is Jesus' way) they just continue in that, do you see where it is warranted and recommended to disconnect from those damaging people?

Where have I lost you here?  What part of this, so far, do you not agree with?

Do you not agree that you were unsafe or threatening or abusive?  Even if I supply you with the documentation of your wrongs against me, is your belief that those things are not unsafe/threatening/abusive?

Let me tell you that everyone who has seen the documentation, including your grandchildren, has seen what you did as abusive.  Unsafe.  Damaging.  Threatening to me and my health...and the health of our whole family (me, Joel, the kids).

And the fact that you kept doing it...kept believing those beliefs (not allowing truth to change you), kept acting in those ways, kept harming after you had been told it was damaging our family...that is even more proof that you and your family are unsafe and threatening and abusive.

When someone is saying to you, "This is hurting me.  This is damaging me and my family," and you just continue to do those things?  If there were ever any question about whether you were safe or not, with that it is answered.

When someone is saying you are hurting them, and they give very specific directions about why, and about how not to hurt them, they are not being 'controlling and manipulative' (what you accused me of).  They are being loving.  They are staying the course, trying to be with you, trying to help you to see how not to lose them.

But when you just continue to hurt, it isn't possible to stay.

Do you not understand that?

Ebersole family, I would like an answer to that question, and these posts.  Immediately.  You can comment here, or you can email me. 

*If you are tempted to simply say, "I just don't agree," that is not good enough.  You will need evidence to back up what you could possibly disagree with here.

After I get your immediate answers, then we will continue with the response about the two principles.

Principle One

I got an email this week from one of Joel's family members.

He outlined two principles of marriage and said, "These two principles may help you understand how we deal with differences in marriage and the reason for not supporting excommunication."

And by excommunication he means cutting ties with someone.  They just like to use the word 'excommunication' because it has such a negative, unhealthy, severe connotation. 

And they don't believe in cutting ties with anyone, family or not.

Principle #1

One: In marriage a spouse cannot change his partner. In the covenant of marriage vows, there is the phrase for better or for worse. So what does one do when the worse comes out in the partner, which is bound to happen? In my marriage, I will mention it to her or she to me once or twice and then commit it to the Lord in prayer as only God is able to change our spouse. One partner cannot change the other partner. God did not create the marriage relationship to work that way. As we are to fully accept our partner, flaws, mistakes and all, as love covers a multitude of sins. I like the way Apostle Paul puts it in Eph 4:2 He says We are to demonstrate gentleness and generous love toward one another, especially toward those who may try our patience. TPT Also in this passage Paul gives various attitudes/actions whereby we can guard unity. This applies to unity in marriage and in the local body of believers.

I'm just going to speak to this family member, and the family as a whole here.

This is absolutely correct.  No one can change another person.  It just can't happen.

But...

Truth.

TRUTH can and SHOULD change a person.

When one is confronted with truth, especially as someone who claims to be a believer, they should be changed.  That is just clearly what should happen.  That is, after all, what the Good News is all about!!

I haven't seen that happen with you, or any of your family members.  And family members, IF that has happened and you see what went wrong here and want to actually help me, then for the love of God, speak up!!

Yes, TRUTH should change people.

So...let's go through what happened.  And, this is not to 'rehash' things just to rehash them.  This is not to rub your nose in what you did.  This is not to shame you.  This is not to prove that I now have a right to retaliate (which I have no interest in).  For NONE of those reasons do we need to go through the history.  The reason we need to go through the history is because there are points to be made about your Principle One.  And only by going through the history can we get to those points. 

You didn't recognize Joel's very obvious wrong behavior as wrong at the beginning of 2012 when he started coming to you complaining about how I was being difficult.  That behavior is...not at all normal for a spouse.  It's not right.  It's not emotionally mature.  You believe(d?) a husband is the leader of his wife...that is not the behavior of a leader at all!  And yet, you treated that as normal and appropriate for him to do.  And...you believed everything he said without question, or without getting my side of the story.

You then spent the next couple of years treating the situation as though what he was saying was accurate (which it wasn't).  You gave him counsel that he should make decisions on his own and follow through with those decisions no matter what I said about it.  You counseled him that there was no reasoning with me, that I had "opened the door to be deceived by Satan" since I wasn't submitting to Joel (i.e. following him in whatever he wanted to do, whenever he wanted to do it, even though that was damaging me).  You said, "[when a woman] is out from under spiritual protection the enemy will bring deception.  Bringing havoc to her emotions.  This is what is happening to Michawn."

Before I even started thinking or using the word 'abuse' in our situation, in your counsel (the excerpts in the remainder of this post taken from communication in 2014, before any separation of any kind) to Joel you said this...

"It is very apparent that Michawn has been deceived by the enemy.  She has been deceived in regard to you, and all you have done for her and your family. Of course none of us are perfect Dads or husbands.  But you have served Michawn and your family in love, by giving and giving  and giving some more.  You have bent over backwards to serve. You have been an example of a husband and father.

"To love your spouse is to accept the spouse with the personality and faults.  You have accepted Michawn, but she has not accepted you.  She has falsely accused you.  It is one of the tactics of the enemy.  He is called the accuser of the brethren.  I have seen him use this card many times, by causing people to accuse others, bringing separation and strife in families and churches.
It is very important that you do not accept the accusations and lies that Satan brings to you.  Another tactic of the enemy is to cut you off from natural family and spiritual family."

This is classic behavior that is described in the video in this post.  The one at fault is seen as the victim...and the one being hurt and damaged is the one who is made out to be the one at fault, the one who is doing the hurting and damaging.

Instead of getting the TRUTH (by asking me my side first of all, but then actually believing me when I spoke...neither of these were done), and instead of counsel that said to Joel, "Your wife is struggling physically and emotionally with all that has happened in your lives.  She cannot keep up the pace you have been keeping for over a decade, son.  Take care of your wife!  She is you.  You are one with her.  If you neglect her, you neglect yourself.  Help her.  Love her.  Care for her.  Take care of her," your counsel was this...

"It is important you do not let Michawn keep you from family relationships with her family and yours. Love is accepting people the way they are.  But at the same time may the Lord give you discernment of the manipulating and control that has been on her and her family, and how to cast that off, and not accept it, and at the same time affirm your love for Michawn and your acceptance of her as a person as your wife.

"It is possible to do the two things together – affirm your love and acceptance of her, but not accept any control and manipulation from her that would  keep you from standing firm on principle. You may have to be very clear with Michawn telling her that you are committed to love her, but you will not be controlled by her to the detriment of what you know God wants you to do.  You are not one with Michawn, but you are still responsible for the spiritual welfare of your family.  I feel in this situation it warrants you making decisions without her, in that which you know is God’s will.  But telling her first what you decided.  God does not want Michawn or the situation to control you.  You keep your spirit free by Praising and Worshipping, and crying out to God."

You did not seek out the truth.  BUT...

When Joel finally started being confronted with the truth, and we started sharing the truth with you, and I specifically wanted to talk through the truth with you...

You still didn't want to let truth come in and change you.

No...a person cannot change another person.

But, THE TRUTH should come in and absolutely change someone.  Change their heart, their mind, their beliefs, their behaviors, their thoughts, their actions.  Again...

That is what the whole Bible is about!!

Joel always prided himself and his family on being so very teachable.  Yet, the opposite has been true in this situation.

You used Ephesians 4 in your email and your description of your Principle One.

Ephesians 4:20-25

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned
21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 

24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 

It goes on to talk about other things we should and shouldn't do BECAUSE we have heard the TRUTH that is in Jesus.  And because we are a NEW person.  That doesn't just end with salvation.  We are to be CONSTANTLY renewing our minds.  Constantly learning and growing and changing, according to truth.

Instead of you letting truth change you, you dug in your heels and refused to even discuss it.  But, now...you are still doing the same thing.

This is proven in the fact that your Principle One doesn't even apply to our situation.  But you won't hear that, or accept that truth.  

Nobody was ever trying to change another person.  But, all of our counseling (along with every other healthy person who tried to help us) was focused on helping Joel to see TRUTH.  We were sure that if truth was injected into his life, then maybe that could save him from himself (and from all that he was taught that was AGAINST the truth that is in Jesus, v. 21), and that our marriage/family could be saved as well.  That was the hope.

Ebersole family...you do not live in truth.  And the actual truth about me and our situation, the truth about family and gender and forgiveness/reconciliation, the truth about boundaries and cutting ties and what love really looks like, the truth about anger and motives and lots of other factors that are involved here...the truth about these things hasn't changed you.  The truth was offered to you over and over and over again.  And it hasn't changed you.

Truth is supposed to change you.  It's supposed to change you and grow you and set you free.  That is what Jesus says.

I also have to add here this addendum that again just proves that this Principle One doesn't apply to our situation...

If you "mention" (as you say) to your spouse "once or twice" that something is hurting you so so bad, that you are in dire need of stopping and being taken care of, that you cannot go any longer without a break to rest and recover, that moving forward would damage you tremendously and you just simply cannot do it...then no, you do not just 'commit that to the Lord in prayer' (although of course I did that) and yet just keep going if it isn't changed.  When that is 'mentioned' to a spouse, if that spouse does not stop what he's doing and take care of his wife, then that is, by all definitions, neglect.  And if he keeps doing what he is doing, and the wife stops (because she has to), and that spouse starts to then blame the wife saying that she is the one at fault, that she is trying to control and manipulate him, that she is being difficult...and even others start to join in with him in saying that...

That is abuse.  By all definitions, that is abuse.

So please...

Please listen to this truth.  Let God change your hearts and minds with this truth.  And start to live in the truth.  

It's This Simple

It's just this simple. It really really is.

If you tell people that something hurts and damages you, and they continue to do those things...they might say they love you, and they might even believe they do.  But, they do not. 

They might believe themselves to be loving people in general.  But, if this is what they are doing...they are not loving people. 

Understanding Abuse

I found a teaching last year that perfectly explains exactly what happens in the dynamic of hidden/covert abuse.  Please please listen to this teaching and learn about this issue (link to teaching video below).

In my situation specifically, the details are a little different than the norm.  There are definite nuances that apply.  I am providing the notes I took while going through this teaching (several times) that specify exactly what happened in my situation, and how this teaching applies to that.  (These notes were written for use in counseling and elsewhere, so you will see the writing style is just conversational with Joel and our counselor.)

I don't know which you want to do first...the video or the notes.  If you want to know more specifically about what happened in MY situation, the notes are very important for that as, again, there are some pretty significant differences in my specific situation vs. the 'norm' presented in the teaching.  That is, the principles still apply, but how that was/is lived out in my situation is different than the norm.

But, the main principles of the teaching are important to hear and understand.  I hope and pray that this is something that EVERYONE begins to learn and understand.  Everyone in the church, everyone who has a female loved one, everyone in society...but especially pastors, so that they can lead the way in the major reform that is needed in this area.

Teaching video:

https://www.facebook.com/ThinkDifferentlyCounseling/videos/538840129892186/

The notes I took about how it applies to our situation:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/als5hrqx4t6k178/Bob%20Hamp%20Teaching%20Notes.docx?dl=0&fbclid=IwAR3LMN8RXNxw3PPjejPUkvU21imP0ZujX3gx4EgeoFfri8_jO0d5krD__fA

The Two Responses

I'm going to share here two responses that I got recently within 24 hours of each other. These two responses provide you with a little insight into what goes on all around me at all times.

Response #1

The first I'm sharing shows the simplemindedness and sheer refusal, that is so very prevalent among the people in Joel's camp, to take in the facts. He is like this. His family of choice is like this. These are truly their beliefs, despite any facts and truth that is handed to them on a silver platter.

I don't share this to complain that these things are being said to me. I share this in shock, honestly, that people can believe this way.

Michawn..I was reading everything you wrote..I don't understand what you say about Joel's destructive behavior.
Another thing, as I understand from your lines, do you think Joel has to choose between you and his children or his family of origin?
Don't you want Joel to honor his parents?
Answer if you want.
You look so full of hurt. And this whole situation for years dragging on, so many people involved.
They made a mistake, but they are still his parents, so hard to break this bond.
If you don't want Joel anymore, why are you still married to him?
If he won't do what you think is right, then he won't do it for you, right?
What did Joel do so badly to make you feel so abused and full of indignation and hate?
That's what you convey in your speech ... a very unhappy woman, outraged, hurt, betrayed and full of hope that Joel will do what you want to be able to resume the marriage ...
You say you want to help other abused people, so explain to me what this abuse might be.
What I can understand from a distance is that you demand that Joel leave, leave his family of origin, and that is impossible ... his first emotional family ties are his parents .. he was born of them .... Joel formed another family, but not to lose the first one.

The above mindset is the reality of what I am STILL dealing with with Joel and his people.

Response #2

More and more, I get these. The more I share the evidence, the more I talk about what has happened, the more people start to see truth. Not all. And many never will. But, some will.

This is one such person...

Hey girl, wanted to message you and tell you how sorry I am that you are going through this crap with Joel. I know you have been hurt by sooo many of us who have drank the “cool-aid”. (Meaning for me the [insert church we were involved in together] way.) I feel like I became a robot in how I had to live and function instead of walking in flipping Grace of Jesus. That’s the nut shell version for me. Anyway, I have tried as much as I can with small children to follow most of what’s going on. And for me it’s kind of been a slow death just reading and hearing about y’all and your marriage going to pot. I know it’s waaaay worse for you but want you to know I love you and you deserve waaaaaay better then his abuse and garbage. I can’t get over Joel and his actions with his family of origin vs his wife and kids. It just baffles me what he has chosen and continues to choose. I will never ever forget your wedding! Ever, it was amazing and beautiful and I loved getting to be a part. I also know that a lot of our friends are no longer around because they think you're wrong and Joel is the angel. I’m just soooo sorry; I especially hate it for your kids. It has to be ridiculously hard during the holiday season; I Just want you to know that I love you and pray that you and your kids are able to somehow find your way through the shmuck of it all. Love ya.

Our family has been destroyed. More and more people see the truth of how it happened.

It would make mine and the kids' lives so much better if Joel and his family of choice saw truth too.