He outlined two principles of marriage and said, "These two principles may help you understand how we deal with differences in marriage and the reason for not supporting excommunication."
And by excommunication he means cutting ties with someone. They just like to use the word 'excommunication' because it has such a negative, unhealthy, severe connotation.
And they don't believe in cutting ties with anyone, family or not. Ever.
So, I am responding to that email here on the blog. Here are links to the other parts of this series that have already been posted over the last few weeks:
Principle One
Principle Two - Part 1
Principle Two - Part 2
And now, the final part of my response to this email.
A review of the Principle Two shared in the email...
[Eph 6:2-3 NKJV] Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.
There is no condition attached to justify not obeying this principle. I don't see any warrant in scriptures for completely cutting off relationship with our parents. If my parents had become unsafe during the 10 years we lived near and worked with them, there would have been ways to deal with it at my end. But in no way am I to completely cut off relationship with parents.
I do not believe there is such a thing as choosing between my family of origin and my wife and children. When married, I leave and cleave, but my love, respect and honor to my extended family is in no way a threat to my marriage. In my opinion this honoring of parents and in-laws is what comprises healthy families. I will never understand why you feel Joel chooses us over you. To me this is not a real choice any family member ever has to make. The natural affection one has for family of origin is a God given affection, and is not a threat to the immediate family.Now, let's talk about this "Honor your father and mother" passage.
I'm not going to go really in-depth on this part (although I could), because I think that the rest of what I have said is enough to back up my position and prove that your position is not backed up by truth or Scripture.
But, 'honor.' Let's look at that word.
Honor means 'to regard with great respect.'
Do you not believe that you can honor someone and yet not be in their presence?
Do you not believe that you can honor someone and yet not have an active relationship with them?
Do you not believe that you can honor someone and yet oppose most of what they stand for or do?
I can do all of those things.
I honor Mother Teresa and all that she stood for and did...yet I never knew her or had a relationship with her.
I honor politicians who don't have the same ideas or beliefs as me, but who I can tell have good and passionate hearts for people, are still kind, and are...honorable.
I honor my own parents. And by not saying anything more here about that, I am honoring them.
We honor by living in and telling the truth. In fact, that is one of the key ways in which we honor. Even when the truth is hard. Even when it's not what some view as 'positive' or 'uplifting.' Because living in the truth is always the honorable thing to do and always brings the most honor in the long run...even if it's hard or might not seem like it brings honor in the beginning stages.
It's like when someone has a very bad burn. We don't 'honor' that burn by just covering it up and being 'positive' about it. No. We have to uncover it. We have to get down in the nasty, painful, incredibly damaged parts...all so that it can be healed. Without that, the burn will NOT be healed...and worse than that, it will spread even more damage and loss. At first it might not seem like 'honoring' to get down in the nasty parts. It might seem more comfortable and less painful to just cover it and leave it. But...that isn't truth about that situation.
Honoring doesn't mean turning a blind eye. That is the opposite of honoring. But, sometimes people are only willing to turn a blind eye. Sometimes they refuse to do what is needed in order to reach a place of healing. These people don't honor the wounds. And no matter who they are, if the wounds aren't honored...and uncovered, and debrided (a very painful process that must be done as unpleasant and 'un-positive' as it is)...the people refusing to honor the wounds are unsafe. They aren't honorable people...even though you can still 'honor' them by doing it from afar. And you are definitely honoring yourself that way.
Sometimes when we honor people, we honor them from a distance. We have to. Because they aren't safe enough to honor in an active relationship. And knowing that that distance is warranted and recommended is an honoring act.
Surely you know these things about what honor means and looks like lived out.
There are many resources, even Christian-based ones, that address the issue of cutting ties with family. There are articles and books and interviews and teachings. For cutting ties with family to be seen by you as something that is foreign or unbiblical is, again, just another sign of you not living in reality and truth. And, for you to think that you can't still honor your parents while not in an active relationship with them is another sign. We must live in truth.
I highly recommend the books Safe People, Boundaries, and Necessary Endings by Cloud and Townsend.
I am going to share this article too, though. This article is NOT addressing abusive situations. So, when they say things like "...leaving your parents does not mean you permanently withdraw and no longer have a good relationship with them. That’s isolating yourself, not leaving," that applies to people in normal relationships. Again...this doesn't apply to abusive, toxic situations. I never wanted us to have to leave you permanently. That was never even on my radar...until the abuse happened. And even then, I was naive and fully believed that after a normal, adult conversation with you all, everything would be cleared up and we would be on our way again, in close relationship...no problem. But you all refused to even have that conversation with me. So, that was not the case...not even close. No, this quote does not apply to abusive and toxic situation. And our situation is abusive/toxic. You must remember that.
Also, the authors/this site...they are complementarian, which is a red flag for me and against everything I believe marriage should be. But, I use this to show that even some complementarians get this topic right, which should be telling. Very, very telling.
I share this article to point out that Joel never even did this part. He never left you even in this way that is commanded us in Scripture. This command...you even say that you counsel in this way, but this is not the counsel that you gave Joel...just the opposite.
Some excerpts from the article:
*Jesus addressed the issue when he said that no one was ever intended to come between a husband and a wife (Matthew 19:6). No one! No in-laws, no mother, no father was meant to divide a couple who had made a covenant with each other to leave, cleave, and become one flesh.
--You may not have intended to come between us, but you did. And after you were told that that is what you were doing, you just continued to do the same things. Not teachable, not changed by truth. So, even if you didn't intend to come between us initially, after you heard that truth, you should have stopped...and you chose not to.
*“the failure to shift loyalty from parents to spouse is a central issue in almost all marital conflict.” God knows that leaving parents will be a difficult transition, especially in homes where the child-parent bond has been solid and warm. Unfortunately, many (if not most) couples do not cut the apron strings—they lengthen them!
--Joel's loyalty never shifted from you to me. There's just no arguing that fact. If it had, the first half of 2012 would have looked COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. If you need me to review the facts of those 6 months, I will gladly share it. But, that is when it was first proven that his loyalty was with you, his family of origin, and not with me. Again...that's not my perception. That is fact. That is proven in evidence.
*We had forsaken our dependence upon them for our livelihood and emotional support and were turning to each other as the primary relationship of our lives.
--Again, Joel never did that. The evidence shows that he went to you guys instead of me starting at the beginning of 2012...and that just continued. He turned to you (when I had no idea anything was even wrong)...he didn't turn to me (even though I had never given him any reason at all to not turn to me). Had he 1) come to me for his emotional support, and 2) believed the truth I was telling him (about me, our situation, etc.) and let the facts/truth change him and his wayward thoughts (2 Cor. 10:5), then none of this would have happened.
*The public affirmation of our covenant to each other meant, “No relationship on earth, other than my relationship with Jesus Christ and God, is more important than my relationship with my spouse.”
--Again, this isn't true of Joel. You can say it is. But, that isn't truth. The facts and evidence literally prove otherwise. Saying something doesn't make it so. And saying something without actually backing those words up with behaviors...it means nothing.
*...you must make a break from them and sever your dependence on them. As time passes, you must be diligent to prevent any reestablishment of dependence at critical points in your marriage.
--If Joel ever did sever his dependence on you (which I doubt, for reasons that I might dive into at another time), then he reestablished it at the beginning of 2012. And you let him. You welcomed that behavior...and then counseled him to further that behavior. Again, I have that evidence all in your own words. Do I need to review that with you? That was your counsel to him.
*A tip: Always try to consult your spouse before seeking input from parents.
--And I would say no...that's where the complementarian thing comes in strong. You shouldn't just try to consult your wife. You should consult your wife. Duh. She is not only your partner, she is quite literally supposed to be you...that is the Biblical teaching after all. You leave everything else and become ONE. This did not happen. He didn't consult with me at all. Hleft me completely and went to you. I never knew he was seeking input or counsel from you until the Spring of 2014 when I saw the emails between you all. That was over two years into the destruction of our marriage already at that point. You might say, "I didn't know you didn't know." First of all, you may not have known at the beginning of 2012. But, you for sure knew that he was doing all of these things behind my back by the end of 2012 (again...I have proof of that). Also, you just let him come to you for his emotional support. You never questioned it, or him. You never said, "Joel, does your wife know you are coming to me for this? Are you being honest and vulnerable and transparent with your wife...the person you are supposed to be one with? I hope you are being loyal to her first and foremost. What is it that she's saying she needs...and why? I'm sure she has good reasons for these things. She's never been dishonest or disloyal or unloving or controlling/manipulative before." No...you never said any of that. And, as you know, you never came to me and asked me my side of the story. All of this could have been avoided had you done any of these things...or taught your son/brother how to do the right things in this situation in the first place.
There is MUCH more to this article. I'm sure you can pinpoint all the parts that I would say were not done or heeded in our marriage and in the relationship with you, Joel's family of origin.
Also, don't forget the amazing teachings and model of Jesus that I specifically wrote about in the last post. Jesus honored His parents. He taught to honor parents. He ALSO taught that if parents come between their kids and Him, to walk away from them (He came to 'bring a sword' to that kind of behavior. Jesus and His ways are to come first. His ways include a husband leaving his family of origin and cleaving to his wife completely...and not leaving his wife and children for his family of origin. That is not Jesus. Therefore, that is not right.
I do want to say also that in all the people that I was closest to when this started happening (i.e. the first 4 years), I first of all never went to ANYONE for advice or help until we were a full year and a half in. And then secondly, I never ever ever ever went to others for advice or help 1) saying anything that I hadn't already discussed with Joel, or 2) saying anything derogatory about Joel. Ever. HE was still the person I went to for emotional support for everything. I just didn't get any emotional support from him when I asked for it. When I did talk to the people I did eventually talk to (again, not until we were a year and half in...I never told ANYONE for that full year and a half what was going on or what Joel was doing, even when he did things like go behind my back and buy plane tickets to leave to go do what he wanted to do when I was in such dire need of him to stay with me for many reasons at that point), I framed it in the same ways I do now...that he has been taught wrong things, that he isn't seeing clearly, that he isn't seeing the big picture, that he is just blinded to the truth.
To leave and cleave...that is what we are to do. And, you are supposed to keep leaving (your family of origin) to cleave to your spouse (cling to, hold to tightly, forsaking anything and anyone else; to adhere to loyally and unwaveringly).
I did that. Joel didn't.
Ebersole family, you need to be clear here...
If someone is saying to you, "This is hurting me. This is damaging me and my family." And you just continue to do those things...
Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?
When someone tells you why something hurts and how to stop hurting them, and you choose to do so anyway...
Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?
When someone has already been hurt for years and, even though she has tried to talk to you and help you to know how to not hurt her, you choose to not only keep hurting her, but to just continue accusing her of more untrue things...
Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?
When that same person wants to escape this behavior and wants her spouse to see the need for escape and escape with her (because they are supposed to be one) and wants to be protected by the person who is supposed to protect her the most, and is then accused of divisiveness and selfishness and breaking up a family...
Do you consider that to be abusive behavior?
None of what I am saying in these posts matter if you can't live in the truth.
And part of that truth is that you have been abusive. In all of these ways. To me.
Do you see that?
If you can't live in the truth, then this will never get better. Don't you want it to get better?
You say, "Even though we do not agree on some issues, in no way do I wish such a life on you. We consider you part of our family and not the enemy."
Do you consider me part of your family? Would you really treat a part of your family this way? If so, why?
You say, "You and the children are Joel's most important family." But...that isn't true, sadly. He left us to be with you. That literally proves who is most important to him. That's just a documented fact.
Now, he, just like you all, has not been living in the truth. Again, truth is supposed to change you. If truth had changed him, or you, then none of this would still be going on. But, truth hasn't changed you.
If truth changed him, then maybe we would be his most important family. That is not the case right now though. It should be. Maybe that's what you are speaking out of...what should be. Because you know that that is Biblical and what should be true about us. But, it is literally not the truth of our situation.
Live in truth.
If you can't live in the truth, then this will never get better.
That's why I beg of you...please live in the truth.
And no. No...this isn't just my perception of the truth. This IS truth. There is black and white evidence of this. There is proof that this is the truth.
Also, our counselor and I have asked repeatedly for evidence that proves what you all have seen as truth (hopefully after these posts you no longer see those lies as truth). Yet, we've received none. For years we've asked for your evidence. And there is none.
If you truly believe me to be a part of the family, then you will hear me, you will believe me, you will want to live and walk in truth, and you will be changed by the truth.
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