Sunday, April 26, 2009

We Are SO VERY Uninformed - UPDATED!!



For those of you who have already read this, but haven't given your thoughts, please do so. There is quite the discussion going on in the comments section, so check it out. We'd love to know what you think too! Please share!!

Long, but very important. Read it and then read at the end about this picture.

Remember this post about birth control? And this one, stating "Why Don't We Know This?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?" (multiple question marks and exclamation points added here...not on original post) :)

Uggghhhhh, I get so frustrated with dishonesty. And I do consider blatant omission of the truth dishonesty.

I have told you all our stance on vaccinations. And to be completely, 100% honest, this new information may not change the actions we take in regards to vaccinations. But, it does indeed change our decision-making process and thoughts concerning vaccinations.

When presented with the questions of vaccination before, we always thought of whether or not they were safe...and whether or not, after we'd prayed about it and got God's direction on it, they were safe for our children.

A friend of mine recently mentioned something to me about vaccinations and how some are made with aborted fetuses. I had honestly, never before in my life, heard that. If I have ever been present when that accusation was made, I don't remember it at all. Therefore, I have to come to the conclusion that this is not something most people even know about.

Prepare to be informed. Look away if you want to continue to be ignorant. But, remember...ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is just ignorance. And ignorance (concerning anything) often times (strike that...MOST TIMES) leads to people being hurt and bad things happening. Sometimes ignorance is justified in that information just isn't available. But, here it is...available.

GET INFORMED!!

More than 80 abortions were performed in the creation of the most widely used rubella vaccines.
Tissue from aborted fetuses also contributed to development of vaccines routinely used in immunizations
for measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, polio, hepatitis A & B and other diseases. Some vaccines
based on nonhuman sources are widely available, but they have either been withdrawn from the market, or families aren’t told they have an alternative.

(Quote from a Samaritan Ministries Newsletter)

Here's the deal: From what I've read, a brief synopsis (from what I understand) is that 3 different fetuses were used back in the 60s and 70s to make the vaccines that we now use today. Unfortunately (as if that isn't already unfortunate enough), many more aborted fetuses were tried but not usable. Therefore, way more than just 3 aborted fetuses were 'used.'

So, with that information, not only do people have the safety questions associated with vaccinations to consider, now they have ethical/moral/spiritual issues to wrestle with.

Let me tell you that I am 100% against abortion. 100%.

Recently someone presented a real-life scenario to me. A nine-year old here in Brazil was raped/abused by someone (I believe it was her stepfather, but I can't recollect with certainty). She was given an abortion because the experts said that her little body just wouldn't be able to sustain a pregnancy/birth, but the Catholic church came down on (renounced) all the people who had anything to do with it. Some, even Pro-Life Christians, say they would've done the same in giving the child an abortion.

Where do I stand in that scenario? I tend to just believe in a God of miracles to put it bluntly. I am completely and totally compassionate towards the people involved. I so very much feel for them and wish it weren't so. But, instead of inducing shame and fear, why not give her hope and love? That little girl's situation was not a surprise to God. He knew when she was in her mother's womb that that would happen to her. Of course, then you can get into 'if He knew her and loved her so much, why did He allow it to happen...He could've protected her, He could've stopped it.' True, but He didn't. And that is as hard for me as it is for anyone else, but no matter what, we have to trust in His love...no matter what.

He knew that would happen, it wasn't a surprise and shock to him that this 9 year old had a baby growing inside of her. I, for one, think He could've handled it. He could've caused her little body to be able to carry and birth a child...for either her family to raise or for some childless couple to be blessed with. He could've allowed a miscarriage to happen. God, surprisingly, had many "options" even in our finite ways of thinking.

Many say that my reaction to this would be different if it was my 9 year old. Possibly. Our emotions many times get in the way of our values, what we know to be right and what we hold dear when we are not in a crisis situation. I can only hope that I will hold true to my values even when faced with an unimaginable circumstance. But, that hasn't been tested to that extent, so you can't 'hold me to it.'

What if I was in danger...what if I were said to be 100% sure to die if I didn't have an abortion? Again, my belief system (God system) says no...no abortion. What about rape...again no.

Guess what? Those are very, very rare reasons people have an abortion in the first place. These are the statistics I found (articles online) concerning these extreme reasons for abortion:

Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape or incest, 0.3%; in cases of risk to maternal health or life, 1%; and in cases of fetal abnormality, 0.5%. About 98% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes about 25% for primarily economic reasons.

So yes...I am definitely, absolutely, without fail against abortion!!

How could it be, then, that I might possibly accept vaccines made from the result of this abominable act?

Let me be very clear...Joel and I haven't even begun talking through this. He hasn't even really heard the information. We haven't prayed at all about this stuff. So, a decision about anything has not been even almost reached. Just want to be clear.

Why am I already writing all of this then? Honestly, I wanted to get it out there. I want you all to know what I didn't know just a few days ago. Will it change your ways? Maybe not. But, we need to have all the information in order to make informed decisions.

So, just in my own brainstorming about this situation, why would we be willing to still use these vaccines (just in case you are curious)?

Were these abortions done with the intent of making a vaccine? What I mean is, did these women abort these infected babies to make a vaccine? Again, let me clarify my thought processes...Were these babies going to be aborted anyway, even without the prospect of a vaccine? If so, in that case, would that be a case of someone just turning a horrible act into something beneficial at least...saving millions of lives in the end?

I know that that train of thought doesn't always work. Can any amount of good justify using the result of abortion? Some say no, no matter the extent of the good or the minimal 'amount' of initial harm (number of fetuses used). Can we justify using already aborted fetuses for good? To play devil's advocate in our decision-making process: What if the fetuses were aborted yesterday and the vaccine was being made today...would I go take it tomorrow? Maybe...maybe not. If not, do the years passed and the common use of it make it O.K.? Maybe...maybe not. If we wouldn't use a fetus-made vaccine manufactured today, why would we use one made in the 60s? If we think that one made today would promote abortion, why doesn't one made in the 60s do the same thing in our minds? We need to all pray, don't we? But, back to the question, can we justify using already aborted fetuses for good?

In the stem cell research area, back in 2001 Bush chose not to permit taxpayer funding for research on embryonic stem cell lines not currently in existence in order to keep embryos from being created and destroyed. I liked this. Why? 1. It was putting to good use something that was horrible and disgusting that already existed (the results of abortion), but 2. Did not 'promote' the possibility of anyone considering an abortion (at the time or in the future) getting dilusional about their abortion being used for the great good in the long run.

So, basically I kind of view it that way. But, really now I'm questioning whether or not I think it's a good thing to use already aborted fetuses for stem cell research...esp. now after it's proven to be ineffective (at least we got the proof in these years since we've been doing it...and of course watching other countries do it). Read this and this to see what I'm talking about. Hmm...maybe God is saying that using already aborted fetuses isn't O.K. ?????? Unfortunately, in the stem cell research area, thank you Mr. Obama...looks like even using aborted fetuses of today is a possibility now. If that's not O.K. with me, why would I use a vaccine made today with an aborted fetus (see how I'm obviously undecided and contradictory even in my own head?)?

Are aborted fetuses still being used to make vaccines? If they are, send me resources that state that without doubt...I've researched over the last couple of days, but compared to some of you I'm sure, my research is still pretty limited of course.

But, thankfully now I'm at least informed about what we are talking about when we say vaccines. What else do we not know...and why? Would I ever have known to research this if my friend hadn't informed me? What about the birth control pill (and shot and patch and ring and IUDs)...we would've never known that those caused abortions had someone not informed us.

We have got to stick together on these things. If you know something, tell me. We all have to make our own decisions about these things, but first and foremost, WE HAVE TO KNOW!! This informaton is readily available (in code sometimes, but still it's available), but only when spread amongst us are we even aware we need to seek it out.

To look at more concerning vaccinations, here are a couple of sites...but there are many more (google is your friend :) ):
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/dailynews/October2002/VaccinesFromAborted4.htm
http://www.geocities.com/titus2birthing/VacProLife.html

Also, this one from a Catholic site is interesting.

Alright, off to pray and talk with Joel. If you didn't have this information before, I suggest you do the same. God can certainly direct our thoughts and steps in this matter.

P.S. The picture at the top of the page was taken from http://www.kayleighannefreeman.blogspot.com/ (yes, that is an actual picture of her Daddy's hand holding her hand...with his wedding ring as her bracelet). She was born last June 23rd (I remember it because it is my Granddaddy's birthday...and Mark's :) ). She was born 3 months early and weighed 1 pound 1 ounce. She has fought and was winning, but in the last few days something very tragic happened. Please be praying for her and her family. They need major miracles and comfort and peace. Go to her site, watch her little video...what a testimony of why abortion is wrong.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

so do the ethics laid down by the Christian Medical and Dental Association (CMDA) for embryonic stem cell research apply to this issue? they are as follows

"CMDA has moral concerns regarding embryonic human stem cell research and use. We recognize the sacred dignity and worth of human life from fertilization to death.
The destruction of nascent individual human life even for the benefit of others is immoral....CMDA advances the following moral guidelines to direct stem cell research and therapy:
No human life should be produced by any means for primarily utilitarian purposes – no matter how noble the ends or widespread the benefit.
Technology and research must not involve the abuse or destruction of human life."

so can we say "its a shame that these babies were killed but at least we got something 'good' from it"? or is it an affront to God to try to "benefit" from something this horrific.

if my son needed a liver and i was approached by a woman who said, "would you like my baby's liver? im gonna kill him anyway so you might as well take it so it doesn't go to waste." could i, with a clear conscience, accept something that was wrought in murder? or do our moral convictions about the sanctity of life dictate our behaviour regardless of perceived benefits?


what fellowship can light have with the darkness?

hmmmm... excellent, thought provoking blog... thanks for your willingness to tackle this polarizing topic....bless you, michawn!

Michawn said...

yes, i'm a tackler. AWESOME points, miss anonymous! :) for those of you who know that i hate anonymous comments, i happen to know who this is...so it's ok. ;)

seriously, awesome points!

O.M.G. said...

ALOT to read. but i'm having a boring sunday so i'm glad to have something to delve into. the article "vaccines from aborted children" makes me cry inside. even the thought of a baby from 1960, not given the chance to live, just breaks my heart. that article is very technical yet floods me with emotion. i had no idea. who out there knows this stuff? when it think of all the vaccines i administered when i worked in a pedi clinic...the thought that i was making use of the products of aborted babies...seriously, now i'm crying. why do i feel so bad? almost guilty. of course, i didnt' know but still...how can i give a vaccine ever again? i don't know.

Anonymous said...

...l am not hiding behind a cloak of anonymity - its just that i forgot my google user name and password - such a dork! thanks for the pass, michawn
kim

Haley Frederick said...

This is brand new information to me! This is definitely a lot to pray about. I mean, I would never wish for my children to end up with a life threatening disease that could have been prevented, but to know that the prevention came at the cost of another life?!? How do you choose? Wow. May the Lord give us His wisdom.

Anonymous said...

kim again...

the arthritis drug humira also is made using fetal dna. there is a japanese company that catalogs and sells human cells.

go to http://cellbank.nibio.go.jp
and search JCRB cells for WI-38 or WI-26 (There are other cell lines out there but i cant think of the numbers)
they will tell you what "animal" the cell is from, race, whether it was a girl or a boy, when it was cataloged, whether the tissues were tested for disease, etc.....

does this sicken anyone? is it good to be injecting dna molecules (read how humira works) from other people into our bodies? humira has recently been "black boxed" by the FDA because it is killing people....hello, maybe God never intended us to be injecting foreign DNA and RNA material into our bodies.....hmmmm

the plot thickens

Wendy said...

I am very interested in this new information but to throw one more stick in the fire---what about donated organs( not from fetuses) I know it is a little different but at the same time you could say the same as aborted fetuses-"They are going to die or dead anyway." Does it make that much different that the person has lived a life? It is in fact "foreign material" or have I just not had enough coffee this morning;)

Michawn said...

No, I get you Wendy. I guess it's just the ACT in which the deceased we are using actually came to be deceased that is obviously not acceptable. Of course, some people are not comfortable with ANY "foreign material." But, for this post, we're just talking about fetal issues.

Because, remember the book/movie/real-life story "Alive?" Yeah, you can be dang sure that I'd be eating somebody's corpse if I needed to to stay alive. They are gone...it's just a shell that's left. I truly don't see the big deal (maybe I'm uninformed in that area too).

But, here's the twist...what if that person was murdered? Do I agree with the way he/she came to be deceased? No...thou shalt not murder. Would I still take from it to stay alive? Again, of course I've never been tested on this in real life, but I would say yes.

Abortion is obviously murder. So, in SOME ways the same thing. Some might argue that it's not as much of a life/death situation, but the diseases that some of these vaccinations immunize us against are life-threatening.

From the CMDA..."Technology and research must not involve the abuse or destruction of human life." Well, technically they aren't being abused or destroyed for the purpose of technology and research...they have already been destroyed.

I KNOW that that is simplifying it in some ways, but it is worth it to look at ALL possible arguments.

One more...to use Kim's scenario (see above)...what if that woman came to you with tears in her eyes and said, "I've made a terrible mistake...please, will you make good out of the awful that I've done?" Would we not do that? Don't we usually try to make good out of a bad situation...esp. when someone is remorseful? Are/were those ladies back in the 60s/70s remorseful? Don't know. Does it matter even if they were? Does it matter if they weren't?

If you were in the hospital waiting for a heart for your child, would you not use a heart from a dead child...even if that child was murdered by his mother?

Like I said...just trying to argue all points.

Anonymous said...

kim here again.....
so i think we need to realize that women were identified as being exposed to rubella (for example)...and were told "your baby could have rubella and so......" with the one cell line, 26 babies were killed before they found one infected with the disease.

to me it doesnt seem like this is a case of turning lemons into lemonade......

i know people who will not accept donations from winnings earned by gambling...to me that is taking the moral high ground and MAYBE doing without because there are greater issues at stake......
what do you think?

Michawn said...

i think i'm almost always up for turning lemons into lemonade, but i do see what you are saying.

because, basically i can still argue this point from either side. God has obviously not given me (or joel) the answer for us yet...will it be one of those things that i think is just between you and God (like the fertility issue we prayed about) or will it be an answer that applies to all in my book? hmmm...are you just on the edge of your seats or what?!? :)

so, kim (and whoever else wants to answer, but just directed toward here because of the comments so far...but please...i want ALL of your opinions/thoughts) would you accept organs from a child whose mother had murdered him...even though you obviously don't agree with the way those organs came to be available to you? if so, why...why not take a moral stand there also?

is it different in some way...that scenario as opposed to the vaccinations made from aborted fetal tissue? you are reaping the benefits from a horrible situation in both cases. do you think it best not to ever reap benefits from something that started with something you don't agree with? what makes the organ donor whose mother murdered him different than the aborted fetus (if, in fact, you would accept the organ)? is it that murder (on an already outside of the womb human) is illegal and abortion is not? are you just taking a stand against the LEGALIZATION of abortion?

love this. love information. love hacking things out with people so that we can see all kinds of perspectives!

Kelley said...

Ok, here goes some of my 2 cents...

Michawn, I think you hit the nail on the head (or however that expression is supposed to go!) when you differentiated between murder and "legalized murder". From my point of view, part of the reason most of us would have no problem receiving an organ from an individual who was murdered is because murder is against the law, we all know it is wrong and our society punishes such acts. Abortion, however, is not only legal but is encouraged in many cases. I do believe that it is the legalization of abortion that we're fighting. As Kim said, aborted fetus tissue is now becoming a major industry where they are seeking to use it in other medicinal forms other than vaccinations. So even though one of the arguments to receive such vaccines is "the mother would have aborted the child anyway" probably won't exist in the near future, as many may begin to think "not only does abortion seem right for us but we can better society by donating the fetus to science." In my not-always-so-humble opinion we cannot rationalize away that receiving vaccines that have been grown out of aborted fetuses IS supporting the act that had to take place in order for that vaccine to be made. An act that is legal and widely accepted around the world. An act that breaks the heart of God.

Kelley said...

I think I gotta leave another comment in order to receive other comments....so here goes...

Thanks Michawn, for opening up this conversation! Until recently I honestly had NO idea that so many people didn't know. I've come into contact with so many believers who know and don't care that I figured that was often the case....

Ronnie and Leah said...

I have been doing research on herbs and essential oils and their ability to heal and protect.
It is worth your research.
I am also putting together a booklet or e-book about it that I'll be selling for a small fee on my website (opendoorsfarm.wordpress.com) in the not too distant future.
Please, Michawn and anyone else reading this, please, please, do some research on the effectiveness of herbs, botanicals, essential oils and homeopathy to keep you well and make you well.

As always, I detest abortion, and this only reinforces our belief that vaccines are wrong.

J.S. Martin said...

Hi Michawn,

I hope this finds you and your family doing well. My wife often checks your blog and told me about the current discussion around abortion and vaccines. I think its an interesting discussion, but I don't believe there are easy answers.

If giving my children vaccines that were initially developed using aborted fetuses makes me an abortion supporter in some way, then it would also follow that:

Owning land in the US makes me a supporter of genocide, because of the murderous policies against the American Indians who owned the land first.
Enjoying the standard of living I have here makes me a racist, since part of the US was built on the backs of slaves.
Buying a product made by Chrysler/Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, BASF, Bayer, Agfa, or Seimens makes me a Nazi supporter, since those companies all made products for the Nazis, and profited from it.

In effect, I don't believe that benefiting from something that has an evil past is necessarily evil in itself. The moral and ethical principles involved are not always black and white.

Thanks!
Jay

Michawn said...

Sorry I haven't weighed in in a while. I've been a bit tied down, but now have a break.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. Please share more.

And thanks, Jay, for your comments. LOVE your points. So true.

But now, to 'argue' that point...not for the sake of arguing, you must know. But, we are trying very hard to come to a decision regarding this and what we should do...as are many people. Arguing all sides is very beneficial...truth comes when we look at all possibilities and listen to what God is saying through them all. Just wanted to clarify yet again our motivation for this peaceable 'arguing.' :)

So, Jay...I guess the point that might be made concerning what you said is that all of those things you mentioned are no longer the case. I think it is absolutely detestable what was done to American Indians. I personally think we still 'owe' them much...wow, what a ministry that is...repairing relationships and all the bad that has happened and continues to happen within those tribes/on the reservations. I think Americans have turned a blind eye and don't even know the half of what is going on with the American Indian population, but basically that is a whole other discussion in itself. The point is though that we are no longer in active 'war' with the American Indians and no longer killing them.

The Nazi regime (that you are talking about anyway...are there still Nazis at large? I don't know.) is no longer in power and slavery is no longer legal.

Abortion is.

So, we no longer have to 'take a stand' against those things mentioned, but I guess the argument would be that since abortion is still legal, some would say that we should take a stand by not using vaccines made from abortion results.

So, here are the questions...Jay, what if all the things you mentioned were still in effect? Would you have bought land that you knew had been procured by killing Indians? Would you buy a product from those manufacturers if the Nazis were still in power and if you knew they were benefitting from those manufacturers? Would you use slaves or fight slavery at all cost if that were still the case in the U.S.?

Kim and Kelley, if what you are fighting is the legalization of abortion, what if abortion had been made illegal in the 80s, would you be free to use the vaccines then?

Please, whoever is reading this, weigh in with your thoughts. We want to know what you have to say.

Kendie said...

Question from the one with no medical background: How do they develop vaccines? Aren't they injecting dead or weakened viruses? Not any form of human or other tissue? Where does the tissue (where ever it comes from) enter the process?
Just curious. Helps me understand the issue and my stance better.

Kelley said...

If abortion had been illegal during the time that all of these babies were aborted then I don't think these vaccines would have ever been developed out of fetuses. What couple and/or Dr. who performs an illegal abortion is going to risk prosecution for the sake of donating the illegally aborted fetus to science? From what I've read lately (although haven't confirmed) is that in order for them to use the tissue from these fetuses it had to be harvested quickly, in a matter of minutes. I truly believe that this is possible ONLY because abortion IS legal. Now, if they somehow figured out how to do the same with miscarried babies then I think there wouldn't be a moral/ethical issue involved. What is sad is that other countries (such as Japan) have already moved to using fetus-free vaccines. There are alternatives out there that would probably become readily available in the U.S. should there be a demand for them.

Kendie - I am probably not the one to answer your question as I do not have a medical background either. But what I understand is that these viruses have to be grown out of cultures/tissue. Some vaccines are grown out of Chicken embryo, etc. However several vaccines have been grown out of human tissue, aborted fetuses. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the vaccine does not contain human cells within itself, it was only created with the use of a fetus.

Michawn said...

Kendie,

Read these:

http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75749

http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/vaccines_how_why.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

Just google...that's what I do.

Basically, they have to get these viruses from somewhere, right?

Ohp, just got Kelley's comment. Agreed. Although, even though I do have a medical background, I can't say that I understand it any more.

And about the legalization of abortion...I thought it was only legalized in the U.S. in the 70s with Roe vs. Wade. If so, what about that 60s case? I'm no historian, so I may be way off. But, was the 60s baby(ies) just aborted without legalization?

Michawn said...

And, again...if abortion was already made illegal now, would this still be an issue? Nothing to 'fight' anymore? If you still wouldn't be O.K. with the vaccine being used, does that mean that it's not just the legalization of abortion that you are fighting and is keeping you from using these vaccines?

Amy said...

Hey Michawn,
I finally have both kids napping at the same time so I had a chance to read your latest info. I have to say I had NO IDEA that immunizations came from aborted fetus cells...why this is shocking me, I don't know. I shouldn't be surprised by anything "the world" does anymore. But I am shocked.

I found an excellent and well researched article on this topic at this link:
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=2410

You will see that there are 'gradations' of being accountable to an evil that has been done. (just like all the "what if" scenarios being discussed here) The use of a vaccine to protect the health of our families and the population in general is only remotely at best connected to the initial evil of using an aborted fetus to create it. But, the final verdict, one with which I agree, is that we who oppose the murder of babies and the subsequent market for their body parts, need to take a stand and put pressure on the pharmaceutical companies to create vaccines in other ways. It is important that we do just as you have - make it known to others that we know will care so that this practice can be challenged and alternatives developed.

Thanks for the education!

Kelley said...

The baby girl aborted in 1961 (WI-38) was aborted in Sweden, which legalized abortion in 1938.

The baby boy aborted in 1966 (MRC-5) was aborted in England. The UK passed the "Abortion Act" in 1967 (a year later). However, historically abortion was legal under Common Law, from what I understand.

Kelley said...

If abortion was already illegal in all countries involved in creating these vaccines, then yes, I wouldn't feel morally obligated to "fight". I would have other reasons, mind you, but they wouldn't be classified as moral reasons in my mind, for several reasons. I don't know if that is how Kim feels but that is my opinion.

Sorry for taking up so much comment space on here! I'll shut up for a while (just wasn't sure if that last comment was for Kim and me?)

Wendy said...

My say is that abortion is a hideous act-legal or illegal and it wouldn't make a difference if they used a legal fetus or an illegal one. It is comparable to an abortion for a good reason or an abortion of convenience-both are wrong and worth fighting against. Does anyone feel better about using a fetus that was legally or illegally taken to make our vaccines?And if they were illegal, I'm sure there are/were ways around making that known.

Juliet said...

Just read all this and love the discussion. Very informative and lots of good points.

My perspective comes from a personal experience. Bear with me, I will probably ramble... I am pregnant..

The idea that God can and does redeem situations that seem unredeemable is something I am in awe of.. but He does it every day.

I had an abortion when I was 19. I was not a Christian yet. I have since been gloriously saved! Praise God! :) Dealing with the abortion has been a long process and at times a difficult one. If someone came up to me and told me that somehow good had come from that awful act that I did, would that be a terrible thing? If it were my baby that was used to create the vaccines, would it somehow show me how God can and does redeem and forgive us? Or, on the other hand, would it make me feel "better" and make me feel like it was okay to kill my baby? Obviously, in my case, as a Christian, I would view it as God using a bad situation for good. But there are people out there (I'm sure) who might use the fact that aborted babies could be used for "good" as an excuse that makes them feel better about having one. The thing is... God has used my abortion for good in the lives of others. Not in the form of vaccines, but in the form of talking to teenage girls about sex and pregnancy and even abortion. God has forgiven me! He has allowed me to help others. So, in my own way, I'm using my abortion for "good". Is that the same thing as using an abortion from the 60's for "good" in the form of vaccinations? So, what "good" is allowed from terrible, horrible, awful actions? Where is that line? If vaccines are not okay? Is me sharing my testimony okay?

I don't know... just thinking out loud, really.

Holly said...

Hey Michawn...I finally made it over here, but it is almost 1 a.m. and I am nursing the baby right now so am typing one handed. :)

Briefly - we vACCINATED MOST OF OUR KIDS BEFORE i HAD A CLUE, (oops. Hit all caps. :)

As I have read since then, though, I learned that the initial abortions were done because the mothers were exposed to those viruses, and they thought (assumed?) that the babies might have contacted the diseases in utero.

This hits very close to home for me, because at the time my mother was carrying me she was exposed to German Measles. The doctors told her all sorts of things that could be wrong with me...blindness, brain damage, death...and told her to get an abortion. She of course did not listen. I have another friend who has a nephew who was exposed to the same virus - but he WAS born blind. (But God redeemed that, too...and he is now a missionary!)

My point is, I'm not sure the abortions were part of this massive abortion industry that we have now (though I think they were purely evil and were certainly the precursor to what we have now...)

It was done out of fear at that time. Women did not have all of the benefits that we have now, the knowledge, the ultrasounds. I am sure that many good women did just that - had an abortion - because their doctor told them they needed to. (My own mother did not breastfeed her babies, because the doctor told her that a mother's milk just did not measure up to formula. He convinced her that breastfeeding was inferior, kind of "dirty." Women of that generation (having babies in the 50s and 60s) kind of had this mentality of "the doctor knows everything and could not possibly be wrong." They genuinely feared for their health or did not think their baby would survive. (And yeah, the same thing still happens, even with our technology. With my last baby, the doctors operated under such a basis of FEAR. There *might* be something wrong, etc.) It's crazy. But really, who is the author of fear? Ya got it. Grrr. Satan.f

So...none of that is to imply that vaccinations are good. It's just another part of the entire picture.

Somewhere, at some time, there were some poor women who thought their baby was sick and would not make it. For most of these women, their babies were just FINE, as was I. But a few of these babies did have the virus (and they might have been FINE, too, just have disabilities...) and those are the babies they used for the vaccines.

Might those mamas be glad to know that retrospectively their lives meant something? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know.

I guess that I tend to see it that God has taken something meant for evil and has used it to save many lives globally. (And yet...I could just as easily argue that all vaccines are bad for a person's health...so see, I'm not help at all! :) )

God bless you as you sort this out, y'all.

Sheesh, Michawn. Your kiddos are as CUUUUTTE as ever! I do not get out much any more! :)

Holly said...

p.s. I'm sure there are some typos. Too tired to go back! :)

Amy said...

Duh, just going back to look at your links and see that I had found the same article on Catholic.org. I plead "mom-brain!" :p

Anyway, I really appreciated reading Juliet's testimony - it is a good reminder that our God is one of grace and redemption. After all, He is the author of the greatest example in history of a bad situation being used for good - Christ's death on the cross paid for all our sins.

Wendy said...

Thanks Juliet for your honesty and personal perspective! I think sharing your testimony to help others is an awesome thing!!!

Michawn said...

First of all, thank you so very much, Juliet, for your honest opinion and testimony. Oh how I love to see people using past mistakes and hardships to help other people instead of hiding and not being transparent. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And thank you too Holly for jumping in and giving us your take.

I'm sorry I've been silent for a while now. For one thing, just busy. But, another thing is that I just don't know how much more I have to share on the topic. I think personally that we've gotten *most* points and perspectives out on the table...pretty much all the 'arguments' have been laid out. Now comes the work and prayer time to make decisions.

For some this is a no-brainer. Black-white situation...no decision-making needed really. For others, it is more complicated...there are many things to consider and many scenarios and whys and what ifs to think about.

But, even those continue to come. As Joel and I talk about and discuss it, we just keep coming up with whys and what ifs (which is good...we have to continue to the bottom of the barrel of these, paddling through to the truth). For instance, when we really put ourselves in the situation of one of our children getting sick or dying when there was something available to cure it (that isn't even across the board wrong for even good upstanding Christians), would we be able to live with that? But, then again, what's the difference in that and using fetal stem cells? Some would say that by not allowing fetal stem cell research, we are denying our children cures or treatments that they need. We are willing to possibly 'sacrifice' our loved ones in order to take a stand against this type of research being done. Is the difference that we are all in agreement that fetal stem cell research is wrong (or the majority of the Christian population thinks that anyway)? Is the difference just the passage of time? Again, the question arises, would I use a new vaccine that had been developed yesterday from an aborted fetus? And then there are testimonies like Juliet's...that something good CAN come out of something so horrendous...could this be considered redemption in part?

So many questions to wrestle with. And basically, I think that the bottom line is that we will all have to do that in our own personal lives. We have great information, we have great points that were brought up here. There was a great point to all of this...be informed, get educated...only then can you make good decisions.

Feel free to continue this discussion. Believe me, I'm not trying to put the brakes on. And, when/if other topics are brought up, I'm sure that I will have more to say. Just wanted to explain my silence and share my thoughts at this point.

Anonymous said...

so kim here again.....

i think for us it comes down to the ethical statement from the CMDA "Technology and research must not involve the abuse or destruction of human life" but i would like to add Medical remedies to the list.

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although some people will argue that these abortions took place back in the 60s-80s but the fact is that "biological medicines" are an increasing area of technology and treatment. so if we give a pass to the companies that did this in the past how can we say to the companies who are pursuing this today that we will not stand for medical treatments that come from the purposeful destruction of other people?

are we painting ourselves into a corner by trying to justify this?
just throwing out more questions on what seems like an endless debate....loving the conversation

Juliet said...

Thank you for your sweet words :) I am humbled that God uses my testimony for His glory. All of us who are believers have an awesome testimony! :)

I've been pondering and don't really have any more answers. I did ask God a couple times to show me something in His Word about him using an evil action for good. The only place that kept coming to my mind was the story of Joseph, specifically Genesis 50:20. The thing is, I can't honestly say I understand exactly what this verse means, but it was on my mind in relation to this discussion, so I thought I'd share :)